Crawl Space Ninja Podcast with Michael Church
Welcome to "Healthy Home ABCs with Michael Church," where we dive into the essentials of improving indoor air quality. Learn practical tips for fixing your attic, basement, and crawl space to create a healthier home environment.
Crawl Space Ninja Podcast with Michael Church
Maximize Crawl Space Defense with DIY Pump Strategies Episode 2 of 2
Transform your crawl space into a healthier and more efficient part of your home with guidance from Michael Kushler, a passionate DIY enthusiast who took on this challenge and emerged victorious. Discover the key to controlling humidity with expert advice on choosing and using the right dehumidifier—Michael swears by the Allure Air—and learn the importance of accurate humidity monitoring to keep your home comfortable. Michael's story of enhancing encapsulation by taping seams and applying plastic to walls offers practical insights, especially for those struggling with water retention in cinder block crawl spaces.
Get ready to rethink insulation and vapor barriers with Michael's experience using the Insel Barrier product, an innovative solution for wall insulation. He breaks down the process of installation, from adding fur strips to boost insulation R-value to creating a seamless blend with a radon mitigation system. The nuances of seam placement and the clever use of felt fabric to protect the barrier during storage offer invaluable tips for your next home improvement adventure. Expect to walk away with a comprehensive understanding of how a well-executed vapor barrier can dramatically improve your crawl space.
Managing radon mitigation in crawl spaces is no small feat, but with Michael's practical insights, you can tackle this challenge head-on. He delves into the complexities of existing systems, addressing the correct placement of radon fans, and the significance of monitoring vacuum pressure. Michael's dedication, spending countless hours on wall insulation, mold removal, and humidity control, transformed his crawl space into a healthier environment for his family. His journey is not just about technical fixes, but also about inspiring others to take on their own projects, showcasing that with commitment and effort, anyone can achieve remarkable results.
Check out Michael's book, "Crawl Space Repair Myths-Busted" now available on Amazon!
Need help: https://crawlspaceninja.com or https://diy.crawlspaceninja.com
Okay, michael Church, here with Michael Kushler and I'm going to talk to him today. He's done his own crawl space. He's one of the DIY ninjas out there. We appreciate you coming, michael, and just so you know, that is not a picture of his crawl space. Behind him, he's literally in his crawl space right now.
Speaker 2:I bought a battery backup which I can say paid for itself immediately. We had a power outage when that battery backup was going off. That was really good.
Speaker 1:Let's move on. I see that's not an Aprilaire dehu behind you. What do you got burning and churning back there?
Speaker 2:It is not yet an Aprilaire.
Speaker 1:This is an Allure Air that I got off.
Speaker 2:I thought that might come up. No, I I you know, shopping around on amazon. This was, admittedly, I think, before I discovered and did a real deep dive into your page and all of your content as well. Um, I think it's a similar type of model, but not the same same brand name. We'll see how long it lasts. I have faith in it. They've got a warranty on it. But the Aprilaire might be the next one we pick up.
Speaker 1:Well, you know and I kid around I used to use Santa Fe and we just had some issues with them, and so their warranty wasn't what we wanted for our company and everything but as long as you've got a dehumidifier, get what you can afford.
Speaker 1:And then, if you need to save up or whatever, but a dehumidifier as long as it's controlling humidity. That's the most important part. Everybody goes into reasons why you should buy an Aprilaire or a Santa Fe or whatever, but just make sure you get one. That's the whole point. I mean get what you can afford, get what you like. You know you got a pretty tall crawl space. I mean you could probably even have a standup freestanding unit in that crawl space. It's so tall. But some of us that have shorter crawl spaces we need something more like that one where it lays flat and blows, you know, across. So so how long have you had that machine?
Speaker 2:It's been about a year and a half now, so it's been been working well and it. What I like about it, too, is that it comes with. It comes with like a separate readout that I can keep in the main home and monitor the humidity level that way.
Speaker 1:That's. That's a good. That's a good point. So that way you and your family can see what the humidity is in the crawl space year round.
Speaker 1:It's not as much as a, as an alarm per se, like your, like your sump pump, but you can look over and every day, if you have in the kitchen or whatever, you can make sure that humidity down there is in good shape. Right, that's right. Yeah, absolutely Right. So why spend all that money if you're not going to monitor the situation is very important. So how long? So you said you had that a year and a half. I assume that was done before the encapsulation. Is that right, that's?
Speaker 1:right, yeah, okay, first thing so it was able to control humidity even before, or is that right?
Speaker 2:It was we had. We had an encapsulation that was existing. It just wasn't super well done and the plastic was getting old and starting to, you know, really show wear and tear in a number of places right um, so that it controlled the humidity down to about, you know, 45 to 50 where we wanted it, but it seemed like it was running a lot, especially in this very, very few times when it wasn't running, to keep it at that humidity level.
Speaker 1:So then you decided to do a full-blown encapsulation, overlap and taping the seams, all that normal stuff that we would do, and then what kind of run time are you seeing now?
Speaker 2:with the DU, yeah, in the summer. So we finished up the encapsulation. It was still pretty warm, you know, consistently in the 70s and 80s here, and it was running, you know, any given hour, maybe 10 minutes or so, oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's fantastic. And before it was running you said constantly. But give me an idea, was it running a couple of hours and then turning off, or was it running all day, or what was it?
Speaker 2:doing. It was running. Before it was running pretty much all day. It was sort of like the inverse Now it might run 10 to 15 minutes in a given hour, right, and before it was running it was not running for 10 minutes in a given hour. Wow, okay.
Speaker 1:So, and if you think about it, you know these, these de-hues, they, they, they're about like refrigerators, right? So they use about as much power as a refrigerator. Could you imagine your refrigerator running, you know, 50 minutes out of the hour versus 10 minutes out of the hour? You know which is why the plastic is so important. You know, were you ground only plastic or were you up on the wall prior to encapsulation?
Speaker 2:Prior it was ground only.
Speaker 1:Ground only OK. So that's that's another reason why we encourage the wall plastic is especially somebody like you that's taken on a lot of flooding that are you cinder block, is that right? Or block Cinder block, that's right. On a lot of flooding? That are you cinder block, is that right? Or block your block, that's right, okay. So, uh, block walls are holding water and then that water is going to evaporate inside, so that plastic being up the wall is going to slow that evaporation. Therefore your dhu doesn't have to run as hard. So that's that's great that you did that and you said you had mold.
Speaker 2:How did you address the mold? We um bought some some commercial mold killer. I did some spraying first to to kill it. I then did the physical remover. I did you know, got in all the nooks and crannies and sanded um with power tools when I could, or just got in there with some sandpaper and made sure that I sanded it completely down and then did a re-spray after that as a preventative measure.
Speaker 1:That's very good. So you actually got in and sanded the wood to physically remove it. That's right, that's great. So it looks pretty clean back there. Was that behind you part of what was affected by the mold?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say to be on the safe side. I sanded almost every single one of the joists here, but I was seeing them particularly as you get into the rim joists like as you get around the band board behind from the existing bat insulation that was there. That was the biggest cleanup job.
Speaker 1:So could you see the mold in the joists below the bat insulation that was growing up on the tips of the wood before you took the insulation out?
Speaker 2:Not around the band board so much, but there was. You know, I remember a video that you said where you recommended take a flashlight and shine it along the joists and see, and I was seeing a lot of like that kind of white glow. So I knew that there was no black mold growing there, but something was growing and I wanted to make sure I got rid of it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a good point. Thanks for bringing that up. So you take your flashlight and you run it down the beam and then it kind of shows the rays of whatever's growing. You know, and you said you particularly saw white discoloration on the wood. Is that right? So when you shined it straight on, you didn't see that. Is that correct? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's amazing, amazing. You know where I got that? From csi. I used to watch csi and then, like, take their flashlight and run it down the wall and I'm like huh, I'll try that.
Speaker 1:So I did that and I saw mold that I didn't see before, hidden straight on. So that was. That was uh anyway thank you, csu appreciate.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what. That's what I felt this was like with this crawlspace project. You think you have one set of things to do and then, the further you look into it, it's just more and more of a mystery.
Speaker 1:That's right Now. Did you insulate? I can't see. Did you do wall insulation? Is that right?
Speaker 2:I did. I ended up getting the combination vapor barrier and insulation that you guys have in your DIY store.
Speaker 1:Oh, cool, cool, Cool. How was the install on that? Was it hard or easy?
Speaker 2:What would you say it was pretty relatively easy. I did a lot of it myself. So you know you have a video where you talk about the installation and recommend that. You know it's an R8 as it exists. You can kick it up to an R12 if you install fur strips. So that was probably the thing that took me the longest, over a number of weekends, just making sure I cleaned everything up, installed the first strips and then, when it came to putting up the actual insulation itself, that was pretty easy. You know, just quick drill a Christmas tree fastener and then, because I have a radon mitigation system here, I used polyurethane caulk all along the inside to air seal it as well, across the top yeah, across the top and inside the lip too, just to be on the safe side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for those of you that aren't familiar, it's called Insel Barrier and it's a fairly new product that's hit the market maybe a year or two old, and we like it because in a situation, especially a DIY situation, it's just a continuation of the vapor barrier. So so what you, what it is is it's I think it's our 8.7 or something like that. But if you create an air gap with a first strip per the manufacturer, like he's talking about it, it it adds our value to it and I think it's it'll go up to our 12 at three quarter inches. Is that about what you did? Three quarter inch first strip, right, right. So that way you're even doing better than our r10 foam board if you do the first strip. And how? How far apart were you? 24 inch on center, or were you closer?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, at least 24 inches for the overlap so you do a, basically a first strip from did you go top to bottom or did you just go continuously all the way across Top to bottom, a bunch of top to bottom strips? So if you've got three and a half four foot wall, you just cut them in half and you put the first strip on. Did you use like a, like a cut nail, like one of those cut nails to put the first strip on, or did you glue it?
Speaker 2:It was a concrete screws.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, Okay. So you drilled in and then used a tapcon or a masonry screw or something yeah, tapcon, exactly. Yeah, very good, very good. And then you drilled again and then you put the Christmas tree to hold the vapor barrier up. Exactly Right. How did it look? Is that our vapor barrier on our DIY store also, or is that a different kind?
Speaker 2:Yes, this is your 12-mil vapor barrier. Okay did.
Speaker 1:Or is that a different cut? Yes, this is your 12 mil vapor barrier Did they come together pretty good, the insole barrier and our vapor barrier?
Speaker 2:Yeah, really well. And you know, I just made sure I brought the vapor barrier on the floor up over a foot and then made sure that I taped that really well and it looks great, it looks totally seamless and it's helpful.
Speaker 1:So you brought the floor plastic up on the wall in Silbarrier right, and then that's where your seam tape is. Is that correct Exactly? And then you're what maybe another four or five feet before your next seam out off the wall, or is it further than that?
Speaker 2:Like on the floor.
Speaker 1:Where's your next? Is your floor?
Speaker 2:seam pretty close to the wall or did you go as far away from the wall as you could for your next? Yeah, I took the. I took the seams. The floor seam is the. The strips basically go long along the floor of the crawl space so it's seamed up on the walls and then, uh, like right down the middle of the crawl space on the floor very good, very good.
Speaker 1:The reason why I bring that up, michael, is because that seam is where the water, the flooding intrusion is going to happen, so you want to make sure that you get that seam as far away from the foundation wall as possible. It sounds like you did a great job doing that. So you got it up the wall so you're not going to flood there, and then you've got the other seam close to the center of the crawl space so that water has to travel a long ways to break through the plastic, right? So, wow, it sounds like you need to open a crawl space. Ninja franchise in Virginia, right? I mean, you're ready?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you guys are looking for market there. I saw my wife if I only had the time or the capital, is that felt? Did you put felt down too? Yeah, that's what. One of the things that was pretty unique versus what I saw, you know, in all of your videos is that I ended up getting the felt 550. And a lot of folks put it like so we've got a dimpled underlayment, then I've got a couple of layers of your 12 mil vapor barrier on the floor, and then a lot of folks put the felt 550 down under the vapor barrier. But I decided, hey, let's make it more like a carpet, because, because we want to have storage and we're going to be moving boxes around and things like that.
Speaker 1:I got you. So you're using the felt to protect the top of the plastic so that you can store things on it. Is that right? That's right. That that is very smart, that is very smart. I like that. So so that that's just and just for you all. Felt 550 is basically just a brand. A felt is pretty much like a landscape fabric the stuff you would get at home. Some of it's plastic. What he, what he used, is more of a cloth kind of material. It's a little bit more durable and thick and all that. If you go to a landscape like a company that sells primarily the landscapers, they do huge rolls of it, like you know, 3000 square feet, or you can get a couple of hundred square feet at the box stores. But that you probably ordered that online from another company. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was online. It was about 400 square feet and the strips were only about 10 feet long, so we ended up running the whole thing through my wife's sewing machine.
Speaker 1:Oh, so you sewed it together.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool. That's cool, I never thought about that. That's a good idea, and you put dimple under the plastic, that's right idea. And you put dimple under the plastic, that's right. So dimple a couple of layers. So you got a dimple uh 24 mil plastic and then 24 mil and then film on top of it. Man, you can have a, you can have a slumber party down there. I bet you that stuff feels good on your knees crawling around, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:it's amazing, I tell you that was. That was the turning point in the diy project. When I got the dimple underlayment down, I was actually able to crawl in my crawl space rather than hunch over the entire time.
Speaker 1:You weren't dreading the day as much after that. Right, it also looks like you used a foam board and spray foam to do your rim joists. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah, I used an EPS foam board versus an XPS. I remember seeing a video that you might have posted somewhere for the viewers that talks about the pros and the cons of each EPS. As I understand, it is a little bit more permeable and can let some water evaporate out. I was worried about having when I pulled the bad insulation out and saw some mold in there. I was worrying about having a repeat problem where moisture would get trapped in there, so I wanted an option that would allow it to breathe a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Right, that's good, and I got a picture here and I'm going to put these pictures throughout the video, everybody, just so you can see them. But here is the insole barrier it looks like you got. Is that a three-inch termite gap? Is that right?
Speaker 2:It is. So I checked the Virginia code. I remember you had an Ask a Ninja question about somebody from James City County near Williamsburg, Virginia, asking about that question. So I found that same document that you had pulled and I found the Virginia code as well. It's the same thing. They ask for at least one inch, but no greater than two inch. I did three inch just to be on the safe side.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, gotcha so, and every state's different. That's why you got to check, like in Georgia, it's a minimum of six inches, so it just depends on where you're operating and all that sort of thing. But what you're looking at here, viewers, is that he's got the insole barrier. He's got the the Christmas tree fastener attaching the insole barrier, which is holding up really nice. Then he used foam board, an EPS foam board with a spray foam, and the reason why EPS is better. He said something that may throw a lot of people off where it allows moisture to pass through it, okay, that's what makes it live longer. If you have an XPS like the pink or blue that you find at Home Depot or Lowe's, it does not allow moisture to pass through and the R value degrades faster. As a matter of fact, a lot of what I've read is that you're not supposed to use an XPS near the foundation. It's basically for above the crawl space all the way up to the attic. You can use it anywhere else, but in a wet area. So that's what he's talking about the EPS versus the XPS, and it looks fantastic.
Speaker 1:You did a great job. Great job. How difficult was it to sand around all those nails sticking through in the boot. I bet you that was pretty tough wasn't it?
Speaker 2:That was tough, you know. That was the thing about the DIY project, I would say is I took care of what was, you know, the most urgent in terms of solving mold and water remediation. Right, but you know, the whole project is again, this is only a 425 foot crawl space took me about four months, start to finish, to do everything. Um, I had a a week of vacation where I then did the bulk of the work with changing out the vapor barrier, laying all of that out, but doing the rim joists, the sanding the wall, insulation, all of that was just when I had time, on the weekends, sure sure, and I'm sure that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Did you do it all by yourself? Did you have any help at all?
Speaker 2:My wife helped me when we were doing all the seam tapings. We found that was much easier with two people, but other than that it was all by myself, with a lot of help from you guys on how to do it.
Speaker 1:Well, great, well, thank you for saying that. I'm glad these videos are able to help you and others out there. We would love it if you would hire us, if everybody in America would hire us to fix their crawl space, if you would hire us, if everybody in America would hire us to fix their crawl space. But we, we just understand that there are some people that want to tackle this on their own, for whatever reason, whether it's to save money or or just a sense of accomplishment of getting it done, or both Right. So I appreciate you coming on and all of this. Let me, let me see if there's any other pictures. This looks really great, michael. You did a fantastic job and I'm going to show these befores too, and you had a nasty, nasty crawl space. I'm looking at the one. It looks like one of your kids sliding toys is in the picture. That's a. Did you have mold?
Speaker 2:on that.
Speaker 1:Was there mold on it?
Speaker 2:Not at. Not at that time, no, Although when I came back to really start the job in earnest, we saw some mold growing on the radon mitigation pipes and other places like that as well, so other pieces of plastic that were starting to get mold forming on them.
Speaker 1:Was the radon mitigation system installed before your encapsulation or was it installed before the sump pump? Where in the timeline was that put?
Speaker 2:in that? I'm not sure, because when we bought the house, it came as a part of it, that's right, okay, so they used a?
Speaker 1:uh, black plastic, what we call a builder grade plastic. Uh, and did they? Did they use like a caulk to attach that black plastic to the foundation wall for the radon? Is that what they used? Like polyurethane?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they used a polyurethane and they had like wooden strips along the bottom of the foundation walls Right, they wrapped the plastic around that, nailed it with a Hilti gun.
Speaker 1:And then attached it. That way I got you and then I assume they overlap and tape the seams throughout the crawl space as well. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:That's right, although, you know, when I started digging down into it, it seemed like this was like layer three, where the plastic was just worse and worse the further down. You got Right, and so they had just whatever somebody had done previously. They were now doing it in a more thorough way, but still it still wasn't in great shape. But they really just laid it down on top of the existing plastic.
Speaker 1:So you had two or three layers and the radon system was put on top of those other layers. Is that right? That's right, that's right, okay. So and they slink the black pipe through is that correct? Like a, like a corrugated pipe? That's right, all right, it's actually, it's a corrugated, perforated biotic. And then that goes the radon fan is outside the foundation and then goes up and over the gutters. Is that also correct?
Speaker 2:Our radon system goes up through. So our crawl space is above the main living space of the house and accessible from inside the house, and the radon mitigation system goes up through a closet and up through a roof and the fan is up in the attic.
Speaker 1:So all the way through the attic, which is ideal. So your fan is in the attic then. Is that correct? That's right. Yeah, one quick tip for everybody if you're planning on doing your own radon system, never put the radon fan in the crawl space. It has to be either to the outside of the house, on the sides, or in the attic. Those are really the only acceptable places. You never put the fan in your basement, in the living space or in the crawl space, because if, for some reason, those three or four inch pipes disconnect or have a leak, all of that radon is leaking at a much higher rate, because those fans are a couple hundred CFM. So you don't want that to happen. So that's why his is in the attic.
Speaker 1:A lot of newer homes that are being built today. Today they pre-plumb them with the radon stacks in the attic and then that way the homeowner can have the fans at least around here. Uh, so, so that's, that's great. So you took out all the old plastic is that right? Disconnected the those first strips and then, uh, did all the new plastic and then you overlapped and taped with the polyurethane. Have you checked your radon level since, since you got done?
Speaker 2:I need to need to check the radon level. It was still pretty low when we did the initial inspection and bought the house, but I need to do another check on it. I can tell you know you have that, that U-shaped suction tube that shows you. You know what your, what your negative pressure is. That's running really well more suction than we had before.
Speaker 1:That's great. That's great. That's an indicator For those of you who don't know how radon systems work. You have this little liquid-filled tube and the liquid needs to be higher on one side than the other, and that's how you know that you got a vacuum, basically. So obviously, the radon system is working. You wouldn't have if it's level, then you don't have a vacuum. So that's why that tube is so important. Well, man, I'm telling you, michael, you did, you did a fantastic job and I really appreciate you coming on. Tell us, would you do it again?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And I want to say too, too, thank you so much for you know that high praise coming from from you and your company, michael, you guys, to do such fantastic work and and really, um, I'm so appreciative for the amount of content that you put out there to make this possible. It was, um, I will say for the viewers out there. I mean, I don't have a background in construction, I work a desk job. I have a pretty small crawl space and it definitely got tough right, you know, in the week when I was constantly down here about eight hours a day, but absolutely doable and super glad I did it. Would totally do it again.
Speaker 1:Well, that's great. Well, thank you, and you did such a fantastic job. You got the wall insulation, you got the rim joist, you took care of the mold. You're controlling humidity. It sounds like you just made a much healthier environment for you and your family. So congratulations on that, and thank you again for sharing all of your information. Do you mind if I put these pictures on the website so people can just look at them? Is that okay? No, please do. Before I stop recording, I hope you make it a happy and blessed day and like this video down below, and we'll see you later.